General Technology => Development and technology news and discussion. => Topic started by: Gary-SC on 26 Dec 2019, 03:00:09 am

Title: Disgusted and lost
Post by: Gary-SC on 26 Dec 2019, 03:00:09 am
It's been a few months since I started working as an intern for a web dev agency. The more I work for them, the more I find myself depressed, even though I love doing this stuff even more. I love coding stuff, but I hate how everyone is about pragmatism and compromise.

I say Bootstrap and Sass are both hassles, and I want to code without them. My coworkers say I am *still* a beginner, and I just haven't learned all the good things about them. "Good things?" Like, how they create more work to write HTML and CSS? That Bootstrap is the modern-day HTML3 inline style approach? As a lowly intern, I've worked with hundreds of pages of Bootcrap pages they assigned me to edit by now. I keep telling myself, "I could code this page much leaner without Bootcrap," but it's "just what it is," and I "just need to work with it," according to my boss. This "who cares, it's what everyone needs to do" attitude is the default, and I'm growing quite weary of it.

Perhaps I am just too caught up in my coding ideology? I'm disgusted and lost.
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: ian on 26 Dec 2019, 06:44:20 am
I'm sure it's difficult, one of the things with working in a team is that you all have to pull together, regardless of your own personal opinions.

I can't add to what you've already said about just doing it, life is often cruel like that. I can say though that you will look back in a few months time and you will no longer be tied up and you'll be free to choose where you want to go next.

Remember, this is worth a reference to you for future employment; so smile - a lot - because if it doesn't make you feel better, it'll really piss someone else off; keep clacking away at the keyboard, just sound and look busy and most of all, get to know your co-workers - yapping makes the day go quicker, you'll find them more helpfull, you don't need to agree with them to get on with them - finally, you never know where talking with co-workers will take you.
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: Jason Knight on 26 Dec 2019, 08:29:15 am
As I told you months ago, sleazy dirtbaggery and active promotion of ignorance is the norm in this industry. You have people unqualified to write a single blasted line of HTML or CSS making these derpy frameworks, and then people even LESS qualified using them, or in positions of power to dictate that you must use them. NOBODY in the entire process seems to have learned enough of the underlying languages to flap their yap on the damned topic, but thanks to propaganda techniques like card stacking, bandwagon, and glittering generalities the masses yum up the bald faced lies as if it were the gospel.

See the "well you're just a beginner" attitude, where that's JUST another of the many lame excuses used to cover up THEIR OWN IGNORANCE! It's little more than survivorship bias -- and a dose of confirmation bias -- in action. They've done it just long enough to have confidence, but not long enough to realize they basically know nothing... but because they can get A result -- ANY result no matter what utter shite it is -- they are convinced they're doing it right... because it's what all the other lemmings are doing, because it "works for them", because it seemed "easy" and "made sense"

When in their ignorance they don't know that the majority of people can in fact be wrong, or that what they're doing is even harder than need be, and may not in fact make a lick of sense.

They believe the lie because they WANT it to be true, and then like cultists use echo-chambers,  threats, and abuse of power to maintain that lie. Hitherto the creation of all these dens of suck-ups and sycophants who will let such underhanded, two-faced, duplicitous lies continue to be peddled and promoted as the greatest thing ever, so long as nobody uses any naughty words or says anything negative. Hence why MOST web development forums have a nasty problem with toxic positivity.

You said it yourself over on DP a while ago. These people are FRAUDS. Nothing more, nothing less. That they are successful is no more a testament to their being right than the nutters who run Whole Foods, Amway, rant and rave about the evils of vaccines, peddle "superfood" idiocy, or talentless whackjob actresses who tell people to shove jade eggs up the holiest of holies.

I don't find it depressing; it's infuriating the LIES these people believe as if it were the gospels, the delusional excuses they make, and the utter and complete nonsensical gibberish they spout about all of this chazerei.

In a way though I've been lucky on dealing with this the past 8 to ten years, as I've been the one coming in with the authority to tell these snake oil peddlers to stick it. Hence often those running companies like the one you appear to work for or in-house developers who promote the same practices are "the enemy" who find themselves either fired or in court for their ignorance...

... because you use ANY of this crap and follow any of the practices they promote -- jQuery, Vue, React, Bootcrap, turdpress -- in certain industries -- Medical, banking, public utilities, government -- it is only a matter of time in most nations before you run afoul of laws like the US ADA or UK EQA/DDA either through civil or criminal litigation.

Which of course these know-nothing derps then run their mouths about "not being a thing' and "no website would ever get sued for accessibility" -- PROOF they're talking out their arses!

You'd think the Domino's lawsuit would be a wake-up call, but instead they attack the guy suing instead of the dipshits who couldn't program a website properly... no that might endanger those people's future. You'd almost think it was a rape case; attacking the victims being the societal norm. Oh no he's a college athlete with a bright career ahead, we can't ruin his life over 5 minutes of action.

It's actually the same mentality, a way to let the rank and file sleazy predators continue to prey upon those who just don't know any better; and to attempt to silence anyone who DARES to speak out against these wolves in sheep's clothing.

Wherefore your being told "You're still just a beginner" is nothing more than an ad-hominem attack to undercut your credibility without presenting any counterpoint. They might as well have told you to sierra tango foxtrot uniform. No different than other passive-aggressive BS like "I'll pray for you" or "we'll have to agree to disagree". Lame limp excuses for the simple fact they have no defense and would lose any proper debate, but want to strut around with a fake moral superiority as if they won.

But again, people would rather accept a comfortable lie than an uncomfortable truth. That's why people trying to spread truth are most always pariahs, whilst those lying through their teeth are held up as paragons... regardless of if we're talking industry, business, religion, or politics. The biggest bullshitters always rise to the top like dross in a forge.

... and that's the biggest problem with these "frameworks". They say what people WANT to hear, not what they need to hear. Hence why so many are easily duped into believing utter and complete unfounded nonsense.

Also why when trying to defend frameworks, 99% of the replies fall into the bottom half of this chart:


Because they cannot actually defend their viewpoint with facts. So they attack the messenger, complain about how things are said, or start using insults without saying WHY. Every response being utterly devoid of facts or even a rational counterpoint. They use any and every lame excuse to dismiss dissenters without once using a valid counterpoint, because it's just "how they feel" about it.

Personally, I feel that letting such "feeling" override fact is one of the most dumbass things a person can do. I could go into even more detail, but then I'd have to move my own post to "the zoo".  As it is, I've probably danced well over that line.

But then those of use who see the truth are the ones who are the problem. Of course we are.

Seriously, your boss sounds EXACTLY like the type of person I've either gotten fired or testified against in court... or just plain walked out on and watched crash-and-burn within months or even just weeks.  I'd love to go ten verbal rounds with the know-nothing; "Send him unto me, I would have words with him."

Evil is evil -- lesser, greater, middling -- makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary, the definitions blurred. If I'm to choose between one evil and another, I’d rather not choose at all. -- Andrzej Sapkowski, The Last Wish
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: Gary-SC on 4 Jan 2020, 06:11:06 pm
I've known about the state of the industry, but I still didn't expect it to be as bad as I have now seen. I understood it in my head, but I didn't experience it at this level, and it's shocking to me.

My company does so many things that I consider utterly unnecessary. They use Wordpress for a site that would be easier and more secure to use a static website. They use Bootstrap CSS, which I have seen NO evidence that it is easier and faster than writing a decent HTML/CSS without it to accomplish the layouts that are simple to code in pure CSS. Stuff like that. And, I haven't been able to find anyone at my intern job who would understand half of my observation. It makes me feel like I'm just joining a pack of criminals committing blatant fraud.

I did send my boss to this site a while ago, by the way. He thinks that there are many good ideas but also thinks it's "too idealistic" to practice in the context of working with a team. He also said that things were different now that people were doing stuff like CSS-in-JS, generating a dynamic page in React.js, and so on. He said that the Bootstrap framework helped his team to be on the same page because it's well-documented, and it's just easier to be able to add classes in HTML to make it render the way they want. I contended it was another proprietary layer of rules we had to learn on top of pure CSS. Why not just stick to pure CSS standards? His answer: "You haven't worked with a team. You will get it when you are ready to do that." Sigh. Can't argue with people like that.
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: Jason Knight on 5 Jan 2020, 02:29:44 am
It makes me feel like I'm just joining a pack of criminals committing blatant fraud.
To be frank, that's EXACTLY what it is in many cases. These people are unqualified to be making websites, by through outright SCAMS like bootcrap and turdpress, they're able to produce something JUST sufficient to convince people who don't know any better to open their wallets. These ALLEGED "developers" using these technologies not knowing enough about usability, accessibility, design, or any other important aspect of site-building to even realize how badly they are lying to clients.

it's "too idealistic" to practice in the context of working with a team.
Yup, the classic "lame excuse" used to attack the messenger because they don't like the message. Try getting such folks to explain HOW is it "better for collaboration" without them spewing more rhetoric that means nothing or becomes another attempt to dismiss the question. They can't do it... because they don't have an answer, they have the propaganda they've come to believe is true when it isn't. They have confirmation bias from having gotten A result, regardless of what shit said result is. They have cognitive dissonance because of all of the able, meaning they are unable to accept any facts that contradict the dogma they've swallowed hook, line, sinker, and a bit of the rod.

Which is why dealing with these deluded fools is like dealing with religious zealots or political extremists. No amount of facts is going to change their mind, because they have been primed to accept bald-faced lies as the honest truth. It's why we have a society right now that as a whole is yumming up scams peddled by con artists.

He also said that things were different now that people were doing stuff like CSS-in-JS
More incompetent derpitude which really only has ONE use -- loading animations. Somethign that in and of themselves should be avoided. As a rule of thumb putting CSS into the JS is as mind-numbingly dumbass as using classes like "text-centered" or "w3-red".

generating a dynamic page in React.js
Writing twice the code to deploy five times the code needed to do the job if scripting were avoided entirely, whilst pissing on accessibility from so on high you'd think the almighty just got back from a kegger.

You would think that Dominos getting it's ass sued off for such idiocy would have been a wake-up call to these fools, but no... instead they're doubling down on the bullshit, creating even more ways to tell users with accessibility needs to go **** themselves. THEN they create two to ten times the work and trumpet from the hilltops how much "easier" it was, or "better for collaboration" the resulting train wrecks of how NOT to use HTML and CSS they are...

it's delusional. As delusional as thinking that stuffing jade eggs up the holiest of holies is good for a woman's health. As delusional as the conspiracy nuts who think you need to completely melt steel to compromise its load bearing capacity. As delusional as all the other hot and trendy bullshit spewed by people who likely couldn't even pass a 7th grade physics class.

He said that the Bootstrap framework helped his team to be on the same page because it's well-documented
Which falls into two categories:

1) A boss unwilling to do his damned job of establishing a style guide. I bet he's got a raging boner for Git.

2) Another blatant LIE when there's perfectly good references and tutorials such as MDN available.

and it's just easier to be able to add classes in HTML to make it render the way they want.
Basically admitting he knows jack about HTML or CSS... both in intent of being "easier" and the actual way HTML is even supposed to be used.

Which is why he goes back to the dismissive "with a team" LAME EXCUSE. Well I've worked with teams, and I can tell you that writing two to ten times the markup to overall write as much if not more code than you'd have without the framework -- NOT counting the framework against it -- that requires you learn something else on top of HTML and CSS, that introduces specificity hell and results in pages that are walking talking accessibility violations... That is NOT easier if you give a flying purple fish about doing a damned thing properly.

... which comes full circle to the fact that those who defend the use of these systems don't know enough about websites to even know what proper is, much less what easier, simpler, or better mean.

And you're right, you can't argue with them, they've packed their own fudge so tight that's all that comes out their mouths when they talk on the topic. They spew 100% bullshit because it's all they know. If they knew how to do these things properly with HTML and CSS they wouldn't be making these nonsensical fairy tale claims!

The only real problem being that it's hard to tell when they're just deluded and ignorant, or if they know better and are maliciously continuing the scam out of fear, greed, or outright laziness.

Though that last one is hard to justify since they keep spewing the word "easier", when it clearly IS NOT in most ANY circumstance. But it must be "easier" -- the majority of people says it is. BARF. It's the biggest fallacy in the whole mess: Bandwagon.
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: Steven Ventimiglia on 5 Jan 2020, 06:10:02 am
Frameworks and libraries are not what they used to be.  Design and Development have both been completely shit upon over the past two decades, much like comic books. 

I've spent enough time in both industries to recognize that agencies ****ed us all.  As soon as they saw a hook for "instant revenue" that was it.  Frameworks today, for the most part, are no longer exclusive for prototyping - since that's the shit that's become the standard in production for a quick buck.  It's also why they've all adopted Agile (and yeah, I'm spelling it with a ***ing capital "A", so piss off.)  Now the QA is put into the consumers hands, by pushing out incomplete products that can change directions like a fart in a wind storm.  It's the equivalent of watching a cute intern getting you coffee while sporting a hard-on in front of her because she got a small burn by spilling some on her hand - and, you're the intern.

Just like Disney turned Marvel into a boilerplate of marketing to demographics, they are an agency as well.  They no longer work in-house and remotely hired $2/hr talent to throw shit at the fan, without a single care of how much sticks.  They disappointed the **** out of you... but still got their money.

Then, we also have the fake "articles" where people are jacking off over the next "game changer".  Look at how they claimed a script was lost and someone tried to sell it on eBay.  However, not one ****ing copy got distributed digitally because they claimed that you couldn't photocopy it.  Well, guess what ****heads... there's this thing called the year 2020, and a mystical device called a smart phone exists.  *click* *click* *click*.  Done.

And, that brings us right back to the development community, which is controlled by monopolizing ****tards.  AngularJS.  Learn it, live it, love it... and then shoot yourself in the head, because you just wasted six years learning something that is now EoL and unsupported.  Angular 2.x was then clean-slated, with zero ability to upgrade to it from AngularJS, and makes me ****ing LOVE AngularJS... kinda like how I'd rather have you cut off one of my feet instead of one of my hands.  Every save needs to process Typeshit, this, that and the other thing... and, how the hell do you work with something like that in a fluid manner?  Oh yeah!  Work at an agency, where copy/paste is more valueable than you are.  React is now the big shit.  But, it's Face****'s baby, and quite honestly should be easier to use than flicking the middle finger at Zuckerbergs profile pic.  But, it ain't.  It's a hot mess.

The only thing I would recommend checking out; since it's kinda fun to use, fairly light, and extends via components you can add... is VueJs.  To me, it's jQuerys assassin.  It can go from a small library that is customized by the code you write, to a full delivery system.  I don't use it for anything but sandboxing, but in a year or so, I think I actually will.

I've grown a bit tighter with Node.js, and also use Express right now for a personal project.  Vue is minimal like Express, so they are like a fancy set of markers instead of the one's you're parents would buy you at the grocery store.  It's got me learning more about ES6+ and is a great tool to practice refactoring (if you're an unhappy perfectionist like me when it comes to your own work.)

So, don't go home griping without pushing forward a bit.  Begin looking for another job starting tomorrow.  The longer you wait, the more miserable and desperate you'll get... and there's nothing more invigorating than going to an interview without a single ****ing care in the world that they'll hire you.  That's what I do, and they are no longer interviewing me... I'm interviewing them.  Be the shark, not the scuba diver.  ;)

-- edited by Jason Knight, profanity. Warning issued.
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: Jason Knight on 5 Jan 2020, 03:38:15 pm
they are no longer interviewing me... I'm interviewing them.  Be the shark, not the scuba diver.  ;)
This is an attitude I take as well, and is part of why I started specializing in accessibility consulting. I cater to people who are in trouble from these types of issues, because I'm there to be the expert to solve problems, not the wage slave who's there to be used, abused, and second guessed.

Hell, my last full time job when I quit, it came down to the fact the Boss kept sneaking around behind me undoing my work, micromanaging everything even though he hired me BECAUSE by his own admission they didn't know what they were doing.

I ended up yelling at him loud enough for everyone to hear "You hired me because you don't know any of this stuff, so why the hell are you ignoring every single piece of my advice. If you're not going to let me do the job you hired me for, WHAT THE F*** DID YOU EVEN HIRE ME FOR!?!"

I left to a standing ovation. Three weeks later he showed up on my doorstep BEGGING for me to come back, I slammed the door in his face. One month after that, they were out of business.

I wanted to feel bad about that, but flat out couldn't bring myself to care. He brought it on himself by bullshitting every employee, micromanaging things he knew nothing about, and making decisions he was unqualified to make. That was... a decade ago, and I've not looked back.

You hire me, it's because I know what I'm doing, and I'm not going to be second guessed by people unqualified to do the huffing job.
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: Gary-SC on 7 Jan 2020, 02:55:52 am
What a fantastic way to start the new year. Today was the first day of work at my intern job, and I had a "heated discussion" with my boss. The culprit? Tailwind CSS Framework.

My boss said that we were about to start working on a UI of a new website that one of our clients would build. He wants me to use Tailwind CSS to create a few basic templates. Take a look at this bullcrap nonsense here:

This dumbbutt framework is littered with class names for every freakin' element. All of them are for "writing CSS without writing CSS" because, according to my boss, the backend engineers don't like writing CSS, and it will supposedly help them work with various customization later on.

I got so angry at this bullcrap nonsense that I launched a full presentation right on the spot to SHOW him why it did not make sense to use it. I ended up receiving more of the same nonsense replies like, "You need to be humble and willing to learn different tech stacks," "You are a beginner, so you can't have a 'balanced view' until you do what we tell you," "You need to be more pragmatic than that," etc. etc.

I think I'm going to quit. I'm done with this "Oh, you are so beginner that you can't say we are wrong" bullcrap. Honestly, I think they are bullying me at this point because I talk back to them.  >:(
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: Steven Ventimiglia on 7 Jan 2020, 04:49:51 am
Yeah.  It's hard dealing with that crap.  I would recommend looking for a new job, immediately if it razzles you to the point of anger and depression.  If you feel that they aren't worth a sh*t, then you need to disassociate yourself from them as soon as possible, for your own health and wellness.  Many of the companies you'll work at will do this, as well.  So cherry pick new jobs until you find the right one that fits your own personal taste and style.

If you spend another year there, then you'll need to deep dive a bit into yourself, and why you decided not to take those necessary steps forward to improve your life.  It's f***in' hard.  It ain't easy.  But it will be well worth it in the end and you'll eventually be very happy that you made the move earlier than most folks do.
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: Jason Knight on 7 Jan 2020, 09:26:40 am
The most infuriating part with these types of asshats is how they will look for ANY excuse to dismiss rational arguments, whilst spewing unfounded propaganda and catch-phrases to justify their own ignorance and stupidity.

... and yeah, Tailwinds as big if not bigger a disaster than bootcrap.

I deal with know-nothing suits like your boss all the time, typically because the suit above them knows they're screwed but the lead developer just keeps spewing lies and excuses.

As I've said for over a decade now, anyone that would deploy code like this:

Code: [Select]
class="block mt-1 text-lg leading-tight font-semibold text-gray-900 hover:underline"

Needs to back the bloody blue blazes away from the keyboard and take up something a bit less detail oriented like macramé. Instead because they're good salesmen, scammers, or just plain brown-nosers they fail upwards into positions of authority.

Since who cares how badly you screw over the client if you can make a buck off it in the process.

There are times I really wish I could be that dishonest with people. As you said over on DP months ago, these people are FRAUDS, but what's worse? THEY CANNOT SEE IT! Utterly and totally unaware of what total impostors, frauds, cheats, swindlers, and grifters they are because it has become an industry norm.

But what can one expect in a society primed to ridicule intelligence, sciences, research, and facts, and instead blindly believe any half-wit fairy tale if it "feels good".

...and it's how/why the way frameworks like bootstrap and tailwind work that make me say the people who CREATED these systems aren't qualified to tell anyone how to build a website, making those promoting and using these frameworks so unqualified to build websites or even flap their yap on the topic, one could have more intelligent conversations with a fourth grader about it.

Hell, anyone who sees "benefits" from things like bootstrap or tailwind I wouldn't trust to tie their own shoelaces. It's THAT intellectually devoid of reason.
Title: Re: Disgusted and lost
Post by: coothead on 7 Jan 2020, 10:41:39 am
Unfortunately, there is no cure for this problem.    :(

Here is an interesting article by Mark Pagel ( about human stupidity.... (

...which you may either read or watch his video - ( 33 minutes ).