CutCodeDown

General Technology => PC Hardware => Topic started by: Jason Knight on 21 Feb 2020, 10:28:48 pm

Title: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 21 Feb 2020, 10:28:48 pm
Yesterday I got to have the "joy" of building two Ryzen systems side by side, one each of the 3600 and 3600x. Because I had both on hand I decided to play with them to ... how to put this politely... confirm some suspicions I had.

I tested both at the 3600's voltages and timings, and at the 3600x's voltages and timings, with the coolers. Prime95 set for maximum heat. This was all gone on a Gigabyte X570 Gaming X motherboard, and Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut paste. Boost was set to all cores capable.

The tested coolers are the Wraith Stealth that comes with the 3600, the Wraith Spire which comes with the 3600x, and my spanky new Noctua DH-N15 Chromax that's going into my new media center upgrade next month. I tested underclocks and overclocks on the Noctua only.

Side note, it's really strange looking at a Noctua sink and fans that are black instead of manure brown and beige.

My results, temperatures are a reported high AFTER throttling stabilized. (earlier values discarded)

Code: [Select]
Wraith Stealth
3600 timings/voltages
3600 -- 94C, throttled to 4150
3600x -- 96C, throttled to 3867
3600x timings/voltages
3600 -- 95C, throttled to 4150
3600x -- 96C, throttled to 4100

Wraith Spire
3600 timings/voltages
3600 -- 94C, 4200 no throttling
3600x -- 96C, throttled to 4050
3600x timings/voltages
3600 -- 94C, throttled to 4200
3600x -- 95C, throttled to 3950 ???

Noctua DH-N15 Chromax
3600 timings/voltages
3600 -- 65C, 4200 no throttling
3600x -- 68C, 4200 no throttling
3600x timings/voltages
3600 -- 72C, 4400 no throttling
3600x -- 76C, 4400 no throttling
3600x timings at 3600 voltages
3600 -- 68C, 4400 no throttling
3600x -- unstable, unable to run test
4.6ghz max boost at 1.5v
3600 -- 78C, 4600 no throttling
3600x -- 94C, throttled to 4233

Conclusions? Well, it's clear to me that they're really at the core the same part, and the "real" difference between them is the cooler it comes with. 50mhz performance is within the acceptable limits of most binning processes, and of course ALL the Ryzen 2 chips use the same chiplets...

But the higher speeds and voltages bring about an interesting possibility. You know how when overclocking to get stability you often just strap more cooling to it and up the voltage? This is because lower binned parts can often stabilize with more voltage...

LOWER binned parts... Given that in terms of TDP the 3600x is a 95 watt part, and the 3600 is a 65 watt part, is it possible that the 3600x is in fact the LOWER binning?

From the day they were released I thought it was ridiculous that the 3600x was $50 more for a 200mhz boost limit increase and sucking nearly a third more juice / making a third more heat. That felt like it was just a really crappy and inept overclock. I mean seriously a 25% price increase for a less than 5% clock speed increase whilst having a 45% increase in TDP? Something is WRONG there.

Well, what if the "x" is just a crappy overclock of a lower binned part than its 3600 cousin. That I got the 3600 to 4.6 with no throttling whilst the 3600x crapped out and started spewing heat like crazy could be an indication of this. They may have found a way to sell the inferior part for more money! Just put a bigger sink on it and throw more electricity in there.

Though my sample pool is too small to say for sure. I could have just "gotten lucky" on which chiplets I had in front of me.  This is NOT proof by any measure and is all just conjecture, but it makes sense.

I can see why most of the trustworthy Youtubers (Jayz2Cents, Linus, Stephen from Gamers Nexus) are saying don't waste the extra money on the 3600x.

Side note, it's also comedy when I trust people on Youtube more than I do "real" writers from "real" publishers. When it comes to 'tech? Damned straight skippy!
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 21 Feb 2020, 10:31:03 pm
Oh, and even bigger side note? I HATE socket AM4. Finicky as hell... I mean I'll still take a real pinned socket over LGA any day of the week, but these Ryzen chips really are a PITA to get them inserted. If you have the bar too far open, there's almost as much resistance as when they're closed. You kind of have to rock the locker bar back and forth until the chip magically "drops" into place.

or at least that's how it was on the Asrock and Asus (eew) boards. My Gigabyte board has no such issues, so it's definitely a "who made the socket" situation. The Asrock in particular was really "stiff" and took a lot of coaxing.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 22 Feb 2020, 03:54:48 am
Are Intel processors still better than AMD, I switched to Intel years ago - and haven't looked back?

I know you are talking graphics, and your post made for interesting reading! Thanks!
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 22 Feb 2020, 06:38:37 am
I know you are talking graphics
Nope, CPU's. Ryzen 5.

Are Intel processors still better than AMD, I switched to Intel years ago - and haven't looked back?
In terms of performance per dollar, AMD is out in front.

Intel maintains a SLIGHT advantage in raw gaming if you have more money than brains, but that money would for normal people be better put into a better video card than CPU.

In terms of general compute, AMD is WAY out in front as Zen 2 -- the entire Ryzen 3600 and higher cpu's -- now have a faster IPC (instructions per clock) than Intel, are shipping with better clocks at the price point, and come with more cores.

In any multithreaded heavy task, any Zen2 architecture chip -- 3600,3600x,3700x,3800x, 3900x, etc, etc, is blowing Intel out of the water for the simple fact you get more threads, and the "infinity fabric" (their term for inter-processor communication) are talking to each-other and sharing memory/cache more efficiently than Intel.

The entire Zen2 launch last year leaving Intel flat-footed in their response, with their new 10xxx series feeling like nothing more than Intel desperately throwing higher clocks and more voltage at it. It's like Athlon XP part 2, where a 2.2ghz Athlon XP was delivering performance equal to a 3ghz P4.

Much of this comes from AMD's new "chiplet' design where they manufacture multiple smaller cores in discrete packages, typically 3 or 4 cores and four threads per "chiplet", and then tie them together on the PCB substrate with a controller chip -- the wiring between the chips and the controller again being called "infiinity fabric".

The Chiplet design also reduces waste in the process drastically lowering their manufacturing costs. In CPU construction a LOT of silicon is usually just not viable and sent to the dump. By making smaller chiplets of multiple cores, if one core or even two cores is bad you can still use the rest of the perfectly good silicon. With the old monolithic die method the entire thing would have had to have been pitched. This is why Intel's yeilds of late are causing supply chain problems, as their struggles to get below 14nm manufacture mated to the fact that if any part is dead the whole chip is junk results in a much higher waste rate, particularly if your manufacture process is flawed.

... and Intel's still struggling to reach a 10nm process as they manufacture in-house, whilst AMD is on TSMC's 7nm fabs.

Because this "fabric" is designed to be scaleable, it allows the same chiplets to be used across ALL designs for ALL tasks, you just bin them based on what performance the silicon can handle, and change the number of chiplets for however many cores you want for the job.

So while the bottom of the Zen 2 line -- the 3600 -- is 2 chiplets delivering 6 cores and 12 threads, meaning they're three core chiplets (4 core with one disabled due to manufacture error).

What gets crazy is when you get up into the high end, where AMD now has the $750 US Ryzen 9 3950x, delivering 16 cores and 32 threads at 3.5ghz base, 4.7ghz boost... and that's just the consumer line on socket AM4, which is fun since all the new AMD consumer CPU's that matter of the past 2 generations. Unlike Intel which changes the socket every time the wind blows.

It also is fun that AMD beat Intel to market with PCIE gen4 doubling again the bandwidth available to external hardware, and provides 24 PCIE lanes across the entire product line. That 24 might sound inferior to some intel offerings, but one needs to remember that we really don't do SLI anymore, and the chips also provide dedicated SATA and nVME lines in ADDITION to the general purpose ones. With the X570 chipset four of those gen4 lines are split out to twice as many gen3 x1s that are multiplexed between devices. Between the on-cpu devices and the chipset you get a lot more bang for your buck on device speeds.

... and that's just the consumer line. There's also Threadripper which is for ultra high end workstations running circles around anything Intel offers, and the Epyc data center chips. The 3990X "Threadripper" being almost identical in general specs to the Epyc 7742. 64 cores and 128 threads with both boosting to 3.4ghz... Though threadripper has a base of 2.9 whilst Epyc has a base of 2.2. The lower clock being because Epyc is expected to be put into U2 rackmounts, whilst threadripper goes in more spacious desktop style cases.

The big difference though between Epyc and Threadripper is maximum supported memory. Threadripper "only" supports up to 1tb, whilst Epyc can support an utterly insane 4tb of RAM. That's RAM!!! For comparison a Ryzen 5 through 9 of Zen 2 architecture tops out at 128 gigs.

... and again, Intel's best high end data/server/compute options cost more and can't even touch the core counts even with multiple CPU's. Even then, you can go dual Epyc.

Though for dual Epyc Rome with max RAM you could buy a fully loaded BMW X5. We're talking $75K+ by the time you get mobo, both CPU's, and all that memory.

But the kicker is that $7000 Epyc Rome server CPU is built up using the extact same chiplets and architecture as the $175 Ryzen 5 3600!

Commonality of parts is smart logistics. Another place Intel's "let's change everything because we can" is biting them logistically.

So in terms of CPU, AMD is kicking Intel's ass up, down, left, right, and sideways... and that's Zen2. The 3rd generation of the Zen architecture is supposed to drop later this year! As it is, for the first time EVER, AMD has market control. This past year they actually outsold Intel 3 to 1!!! That's a crazy demographic shift. If you care about building "the best gaming rig" and money is no object, Intel MIGHT still be your choice, but if you care about much of anything else, you'd be a moron to not buy a 3rd gen Ryzen.

AMD's also doing better on the graphics side, though nVidia is still way out in front on overall performance. The AMD Radeon 5700XT competes well on price-performance to the mid-range nVidia RTX 2070 cards, but they don't have anything out right now to even come close to the 2080's. The old Vega architecture was a deed end for graphics though it's the most powerful compute per clock or compute per dollar of any video card, but the new Navi architecture is way ahead. Problem is they didn't release the high end card first... though we should be hearing about the 5900XT in the coming month.

Problem is, nVidia IS announcing the RTX 30x0 series in March which is supposed to be another generational shift like the 10xx series were. I'm probably gonna pick up a RTX 3070 once the prices lines up with my wallet and the first gen releases have been all patched up and fixed by the early adoption suckers.

Big advice with new hardware? Let other chumps and rubes try it on release.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 22 Feb 2020, 06:51:40 am
Oh, and when I said "Intel is still ahead in gaming if price is no object" I have the feeling that might change with the next generation of games and RTX 30x0 / Radeon 5900 thanks to PCIe gen4. That faster bus between CPU and GPU doesn't really show up in anything other than video rendering when it comes to the 5700XT (the 5700 and 5700XT being the only two consumer PCIe gen4 video cards on the market right now), but more powerful GPU's are going to become more and more bottlenecked by CPU's and the bus between them. PCIe gen4 means that it's highly likely that Intel's offerings are going to suffer on the next generation of video cards since they still have no clear roadmap to even implement it.

See Intel's "new" 10x00 series i9 processors that appear to be nothing more than another "refresh" of the same architectures. Honestly other than clock boosts and MINOR increases in IPC, Intel has been standing still since Haswell.  That's part of how AMD caught up "so fast". Intel just isn't innovating or adding anything new; they're just making minor changes, upping the clock speeds, and throwing more electricity at the problem.

Hence why the Ryzen 5 3600 gives the 9700k a run for its money, whilst being a 65 watt TDP to the 9700k's 95 watts... a gap that's even wider if one takes into account the fact that AMD measures TDP at boost frequency, Intel measures it at base so they don't have to admit it's actually a 150 watt part.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 22 Feb 2020, 10:54:58 am
That’s a very enlighten posts, I left AMD due the Athlon saga, (now you know roughly my age - I don’t miss the jumpers at all), so is it worth revisiting AMDs instead of choosing Intel again as my systems are due upgrade soon? Only problem is I have dual Dell Ultrasharps with DVIs and don’t want to have to upgrade the whole system as that would hurt the old wallet...
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 22 Feb 2020, 01:04:48 pm
Are the DVI to HDMI cables any good?
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 22 Feb 2020, 05:21:04 pm
Are the DVI to HDMI cables any good?
Given that DVI and HDMI are the same SIGNALS just with different connectors? Yup. If the display is DVI you'll be just fine.

Going the other direction, DVI card to HDMI display can be hit or miss at resolutions over 1080p as HDMI uses a different technique for anything over 2560x1440 from DVI though. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Like I've been unable to get an HDMI output to drive my 27" 2560x1440 IPS, but thankfully that workstation has a GTX 560TI in it with a DVI port... sadly though it leaves me driving one of the 24" 1920x1200 displays off analog.

Whilst my media center is driving the 65" 4k display over HDMI 2, and a secondary 21" display (for debugging/ monitoring) width HDMI to DVI just fine.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 22 Feb 2020, 05:27:01 pm
I have a pair of 24” Dell Ultrasharps ( U2412M?) on a i5 2500k so would a Ryzen 5 be a worth thinking about? For a small ish budget?
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 22 Feb 2020, 05:42:37 pm
so is it worth revisiting AMDs instead of choosing Intel again as my systems are due upgrade soon?
Absolutely. The entire Zen2 (aka Ryzen 3600 or higher) lineup are for all intents and purposes blowing Intel out of the water on everything except "raw gaming performance where money is no object"... and even then Intel loses if you put cost into the equation.

Let me put it this way, the $175 Ryzen 3600 -- the BOTTOM of the Zen2 lineup -- is faster than 90% of Intels current lineup; up to and including their $300 offerings. In some cases it's even spitting distance (10% or less) i7 9700k, a $400 sku that has two more cores and is clocked 200mhz faster.

Let me say that again, the Intel i7 9700k costs $225 more, has two more cores, four more threads, and is clocked 200mhz faster, and in most benchmarks it only wins out by 5 to 10%. You MIGHT see the occasional game where the difference is 25%, but is a 25% speed gain worth over double the price?!? Also remember, that's comparing the BOTTOM of the product line to pretty far up the middle. If we went price to price you'd be looking at a 3800X for $100 less, or a 3900X for $70 more, both of which run circles around the 9700k, The latter with its 12 cores / 24 threads pwning pretty much everything in non-gaming tasks.

Just beware the "proper" motherboards for a Zen2 are gonna run you $150 or more. You can theoretically use cheaper/older boards if you have another socket AM4 chip you can BIOS flash with, but there are performance and feature penalties so I say buy an X570 chipset motherboard, or don't bother at all.

Of course if you're just making the tech leap, you'll probably want to get some nVME PCIe x4 SSD's. It's about $250 for a good 2tb one (I suggest Silicon Power as a reliable but affordable brand) and well worth it with their being roughly 10x faster than a SATA SSD, so 60x faster than the best HDDs like seagate Ironwolf or Exos.

I was skeptical of SSD's at the start because as a tech I kept pulling dead ones out of machines for people, and under SATA it wasn't THAT big a difference in the first generation of them. Now with M.2 NVME PCIe "gumsticks" it's outright ridiculous.

For example, middle of the road 4tb HDD:
(https://cutcodedown.com/images/upgrade_sept_2018/seagate_barracuda_4tb_hdd.png)

High end 6tb Seagate Ironwolf, one of the fastest HDD's out there:
(https://cutcodedown.com/images/upgrade_sept_2018/seagate_ironwolf_6tb_hdd.png)

A SATA SSD delivers basically anywhere from 25% to 200% the numbers of the Ironwolf depending on brand and cost... The BEST you're likely to see out of SATA is mid 500's on the sequential read.

... and here's a 500 gig M.2 NVME PCIe x4 Gen 3 WD Caviar Black SSD
(https://cutcodedown.com/images/upgrade_sept_2018/wd_black_m2_ssd.png)

Transformative doesn't even begin to cover this performance jump. Especially now that the "teething" problems of NAND Flash are well in the past.

I'm hoping to soon pick up a PCIE Gen4 SSD soon since that's supposed to double-again the performance numbers.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 22 Feb 2020, 05:50:38 pm
I have a pair of 24” Dell Ultrasharps ( U2412M?) on a i5 2500k so would a Ryzen 5 be a worth thinking about? For a small ish budget?
Oh absolutely. The Ryzen 5 3600 -- the BOTTOM of the product line -- is roughly equal to a i7 4790k on single threaded performance.... Well, let's use geekbench to compare. It's not the most accurate but it's close enough for gov't work.

Your 2500k has a geekbench score of:

Single thread: 813
Multi thread: 2691

Ryzen 5 3600:

Single thread: 1205
Multi thread: 6852

So basically a 50% boost MINIMUM in performance, and if you're doing anything that can use the multiple cores we're talking 250% faster.

Pricing it out, you're likely looking at $160 for a decent amount of RAM (32gb), $160 for the mobo, and $175 for the CPU. Because it's a 65 watt part, you could likely even just swap in place on your current build. I'd tack on another $100 minimum for a nVME SSD, so as upgrades go you'd be looking at around $600, and a complete from scratch build being about a grand with a mid-low video card and "ready for anything" power supply.

If you're up for DIY... which is the only way I suggest building as it gives you complete control what with most off the shelf machines being ineptly built trash with overpriced underperforming parts. It's like at some point "economies of scale" got thrown out the window; likely from everyone copying crApple's idiotic price-gouging -- something that's slowly destroying the economy as these businesses place growing their profits ahead of the future of their own company. As if having stable profits or breaking even is some sort of "evil".
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 23 Feb 2020, 06:21:56 am
I may look into this upgrade option then.

I have always built my own systems, from my very first Windows 3.1/95 machine powered by an Athlon XP....

Thank you for your feedback - I guess from one of your comments you would recommend staying away from Asus motherboards?

Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 23 Feb 2020, 02:06:05 pm
Do all motherboards support dual monitors?

Just working out if this upgrade could fit my budget and wallet...
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 23 Feb 2020, 04:55:50 pm
Do all motherboards support dual monitors?

The chips we're talking about aren't APU's, they don't come with integrated graphics and none is provided by the motherboard. (though there are APU's that fit the socket, they're low in low performing crap)

If building Zen2 you're going to need a discrete graphics card. If you're not gaming hardcore I'd suggest a nVidia GTX 1650 Super, which will run around $160... if you want high end video power then a RTX 2070 Super is manageable for around $500, and it you want the best of the best of the best with honors, then you're looking at the RTX 2080 TI which will cost more than the rest of the system combined at $1100+.

Though if you want to run Linux and not windows nvidia's drivers suck, so one might want to consider a Radeon RX 580 on the low end at around $160 (magic window for the low-end prices)... though if going AMD Radeon the 5700XT at $370 or so delivers the most bang for the buck.

... and literally the OS I plan to run would choose the video chipset maker for me. nVidia is better performing and STILL a better bargain for Windows users, but is a pain in the ass to get working right on Linux. AMD uses open drivers so theirs works out of the box in Linux 99% of the time.

Likewise AMD is easier to get working in modern versions of OSX if you're trying to make a hackintosh because of the rather ugly and messy falling out between Apple and nVidia a decade ago.

Just working out if this upgrade could fit my budget and wallet...

Well, let's price it out on NewEgg. Trying to work with keeping it budget but "middle of road that will last you a few years"...

AMD Ryzen 5 3600 - $179.99

GIGABYTE X570 AORUS ELITE Motherboard - $179.99

G.Skill Ripjaws V 16gb (2x8) DDR4 3600 - $82.99

Zotac GeForce GTX 1650 Super video card - $159.99

Silicon Power 512gb VNME SSD - $72.99   

Seagate Ironwolf Pro 4tb 7200RPM - $137.99

DIYPC Zondda-O Black case -- $35.87

Antec NeoEco Series NE650G 650W PSU -- $89.99

Total: $939.80

I went with the small SSD for boot and software and the HDD for mass storage since I'm not 100% sure your needs. It might be worth it to spend the extra $50 or so to get a single 2tb nvme SSD instead if you're doing high disk traffic load work. Yes, I went with the expensive ironwolf because they LAST.

That's really the cheapest case I'd consider building around, but that's a place I prefer to throw a hair more money at. Case in point my favorite case right now is the Rosewill Thor V2 which comes in at around $120. What blows my mind about it is there's actually room inside it to work, room to mount front panel stuff if I want like Optical drives or my creative and EMU audio bays, etc,etc... aka stuff that's going the way of the dodo on mainstream cases. I also like that it has ACTUAL fans... the smallest fan is 140mm, and it's got 230mm front, top, AND side... so none of that artsy fartsy "glass window" idiocy.

Olive Oil: ... and he's large. (LARGE). large... (LARGE)... Tall... (LARGE)... and he's mine.

I almost died laughing at NewEgg's video for it, the adorkable little girl dwarfed by the boxes it comes in.

https://youtu.be/eStwwZFlOoQ

Never thought Rosewill would make a durable over-engineered product, but here we are. There's a REASON they're sold out on NewEgg right now.

In any case, you could probably also shave a few bucks off ordering on Amazon, I just went with newegg because of their superior search and cart system.

I did NOT screw around on power supply. Even though the CPU is a 65 watt part it can in reality pull upwards of 100 at boost, and the video card can be a bit thirsty too. More importantly that's enough power supply to give you an "upgrade in place" path all the way up to the 3900X cpu and the GTX 2080ti video. If NOTHING else always over-provision your power supply because as the capacitors age they lose delivery capability... so by using a 650 in a system that really only "needs" a 500, it will be usable for a decade.

See my old ThermalTake TR2 850 watt that ran my media center / gaming rig for 9 years -- even with the ridiculously power hungry i7 920 and GTX 260's in SLI of the initial build and survived all the way up to i7 4770k and GTX 1070. I only replaced this past fall as preventative maintenance when I moved the rig over from the old Thermaltake Element G case to the Thor.

I also downed it to 16gb since that's enough for "normal people". I just go 32gb for future-proofing and it really helps that moving forward it leaves you with two memory slots free.

Oh and remember being a DIY build if you go windows you might want to spring for a new license, so that's another $100. Though you can get them for around $30 off third party vendors like Kinguin or NextKeys... or you could go a darker route, but if you're going to do work on it, spend the $30. Thankfully we at least don't have to slop around with DVD's anymore... just go to M$, download the tool, and turn a 8 gig USB stick into an installation drive.

-- edit -- Just noticed NextKeys has Win 10 pro OEM keys for $18.44 / € 16.99... Might have to grab a few. I like to stock up when cheap and then hand them out as gifts to people I build machines for.

Bottom line though, I'd say that if you're not into hardcore gaming you're looking at around a grand, +/- $100 depending on your choices... and even then such a configuration can deliver console level performance at 1080p.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 24 Feb 2020, 07:16:52 am
I didn't see your post until after I have ordered!! I wish I had waited!

Anyhow I got a B450M DS3H and the Ryzen 5 - but no POST all fans and power LED come on but no BIOS? Looks like this board has issues with the Ryzen 5 would you agree? The only thing connected is the RAM and that is Corsair Vengenance DDR4 2400 2 x 16gb? In slots 1 and 2. (The Gigabyte websites says it supports the RyZen 5)

I have submitted a request as I will try and upgrade to the board you suggested :)
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 24 Feb 2020, 07:40:47 am
I only have a MicroATX case so that board won't fit! LOL!

This (https://www.ebuyer.com/825833-thermaltake-versa-h17-micro-case-ca-1j1-00s1nn-01) is the case I went for...

I also went for a 500gb NVMe...
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 24 Feb 2020, 09:13:03 am
Anyhow I got a B450M DS3H and the Ryzen 5
Instant /fail/ and I thought I mentioned that. Anything other than X570 requires a bios flash to work with Zen2 (ryzen 3600/higher). To do that BIOS flash you need a supported CPU like an older 2xxx or even 1xxx  ryzen. You put the older CPU in, flash it, then try the new CPU.

Wrong board unless you already have an AM4 cpu... and even then some functionality will be missing and there's a performance hit. You need an X570 board... which start at around $140 and get ugly in price from there.

Also that case is shite because it has like next to no airflow.

It also depends on WHICH Ryzen 5 as there's three different generations of them. Zen, Zen+, and Zen2.

... and that's the wrong RAM at piddly little 2400 clock speed, gutting the performance since the infinity fabric is tied to the half the memory speed. Hence it's 3200 as bare minimum, 3600 as the recommended! It would have been fine for something like the old slower Ryzen 5 2600, but that RAM will effectively cripple the 3600.

Sad to say you're off to a bad start. Wrong RAM, Wrong Mobo, even the wrong CASE for a Ryzen 5 3600.

Also WHICH nVME drive? They are NOT all created equal and a lot of them -- HP, Intel -- are absolute worthless trash basically designed to die prematurely. They also all don't perform the same with many of them being no better than SATA because that's really all their controller is designed for.

You've got to watch it with this stuff, the devil is in the details and you can quickly end up ordering a slew of things that whilst similarly named to the correct parts, don't work together right if at all.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 24 Feb 2020, 09:36:27 am
Anyhow I got a B450M DS3H and the Ryzen 5
Instant /fail/ and I thought I mentioned that. Anything other than X570 requires a bios flash to work with Zen2 (ryzen 3600/higher). To do that BIOS flash you need a supported CPU like an older 2xxx or even 1xxx  ryzen. You put the older CPU in, flash it, then try the new CPU.

Wrong board unless you already have an AM4 cpu... and even then some functionality will be missing and there's a performance hit. You need an X570 board... which start at around $140 and get ugly in price from there.

Also that case is shite because it has like next to no airflow.

It also depends on WHICH Ryzen 5 as there's three different generations of them. Zen, Zen+, and Zen2.

... and that's the wrong RAM at piddly little 2400 clock speed, gutting the performance since the infinity fabric is tied to the half the memory speed. Hence it's 3200 as bare minimum, 3600 as the recommended! It would have been fine for something like the old slower Ryzen 5 2600, but that RAM will effectively cripple the 3600.

Sad to say you're off to a bad start. Wrong RAM, Wrong Mobo, even the wrong CASE for a Ryzen 5 3600.

Also WHICH nVME drive? They are NOT all created equal and a lot of them -- HP, Intel -- are absolute worthless trash basically designed to die prematurely. They also all don't perform the same with many of them being no better than SATA because that's really all their controller is designed for.

You've got to watch it with this stuff, the devil is in the details and you can quickly end up ordering a slew of things that whilst similarly named to the correct parts, don't work together right if at all.
I can hear you laughing from here, I am reviewing the case and motherboard... as like I said I wish I had waited !!
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 24 Feb 2020, 09:43:42 am
The NVME drive (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-SN500-High-Performance-NVMe-Internal/dp/B07PC59ZDV/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=western+digital+nvme&qid=1582555354&sr=8-8)
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 24 Feb 2020, 10:01:17 am
Sadly I don't have room for a full ATX case under my desk at the workshop so the biggest I can go is a MicroATX - and airflow will be a problem on all mATX cases?

I even had to recase the i5 when I brought it from home to the workshop.... that used to be in a Coolmaster case...
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 24 Feb 2020, 10:21:52 am
The NVME drive (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-SN500-High-Performance-NVMe-Internal/dp/B07PC59ZDV/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=western+digital+nvme&qid=1582555354&sr=8-8)
The WD blue is...ok, but slightly underperforming. The Black is the preferred version... the blue is... well, low end consumer stuff.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 24 Feb 2020, 10:25:49 am
The NVME drive (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-SN500-High-Performance-NVMe-Internal/dp/B07PC59ZDV/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=western+digital+nvme&qid=1582555354&sr=8-8)
The WD blue is...ok, but slightly underperforming. The Black is the preferred version... the blue is... well, low end consumer stuff.
So it should be okay for me? I am not a heavy computer user - my work is of the physical type... as I am a grease monkey for my day job...
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 24 Feb 2020, 10:27:26 am
Sadly I don't have room for a full ATX case under my desk at the workshop so the biggest I can go is a MicroATX - and airflow will be a problem on all mATX cases?
That TT is more of a sub-micro... but is your desk really so short it can't fit a mid-tower? I mean they're a hair under 20" tall...
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 24 Feb 2020, 02:10:45 pm
Sadly I don't have room for a full ATX case under my desk at the workshop so the biggest I can go is a MicroATX - and airflow will be a problem on all mATX cases?
That TT is more of a sub-micro... but is your desk really so short it can't fit a mid-tower? I mean they're a hair under 20" tall...
It’s more I have to keep them off the floor as it’s get dusty... a full ATx case won’t fit under the desk lol! With the shelve I use which runs between the two draws...

What about the Corsair 110Q (https://www.corsair.com/uk/en/Categories/Products/Cases/Mid-Tower-ATX-Cases/110Q-Mid-Tower-Quiet-ATX-Case/p/CC-9011184-WW)
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 24 Feb 2020, 02:49:36 pm
Anyhow I got a B450M DS3H and the Ryzen 5
... and that's the wrong RAM at piddly little 2400 clock speed, gutting the performance since the infinity fabric is tied to the half the memory speed. Hence it's 3200 as bare minimum, 3600 as the recommended! It would have been fine for something like the old slower Ryzen 5 2600, but that RAM will effectively cripple the 3600.
I could have sworn I got the right ram for the processor - turns out I ordered it for the motherboard - correct 32gb 3600mhz (https://www.ebuyer.com/957347-corsair-vengeance-lpx-black-32gb-3600mhz-2x16gb-ddr4-memory-kit-cmk32gx4m2d3600c18) ordered - good spot - Thank you!

You've got to watch it with this stuff, the devil is in the details and you can quickly end up ordering a slew of things that whilst similarly named to the correct parts, don't work together right if at all.
So it seems, I think I will stick with this one for now - and then do it properly in a few months when I upgrade my server...

As ill build that to the exact you posted! :)

I did order this (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07QF1H9YR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) so I did try and listen to you...

Thanks for your feedback!


Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 24 Feb 2020, 03:07:58 pm
Will this (https://www.amazon.co.uk/AMD-Ryzen-3200G-Processor-Graphics/dp/B07STGHZK8/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=Ryzen+3+PRO+1200&qid=1582575099&s=computers&sr=1-3) be okay for flashing the BIOS - as a friend can lend me this?
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 24 Feb 2020, 04:47:25 pm
Will this (https://www.amazon.co.uk/AMD-Ryzen-3200G-Processor-Graphics/dp/B07STGHZK8/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=Ryzen+3+PRO+1200&qid=1582575099&s=computers&sr=1-3) be okay for flashing the BIOS - as a friend can lend me this?
I'm not sure any of the 3000's will work, as they're too new... though the 3500g/earlier are only zen+ so there's a CHANCE it might; but I wouldn't bank on it.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 25 Feb 2020, 02:14:13 pm
Well I am at a lost as to what to say...

The motherboard was already running the F50 latest bios, so I install the Rayzen 5, the Zotac graphics card and the 32gb 3600mhz ram - and it’s all working - took about half hour/45 minutes from switch on to fully install and upgrade... so I’m very impressed - thanks for all your help and advice Jason - I appreciate it, so I can hopefully install Apache, etc and get back to my development work tomorrow...

Ordered the IronWolf tonight and that should be with me tomorrow so I can hopefully close the case tomorrow for a while.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: Jason Knight on 26 Feb 2020, 04:38:36 am
so I’m very impressed
If you came from a HDD equipped machine, I bet the boot times and application startups is blowing your socks off.

Of course if you went with 32gb of RAM combined with the 6 core / 12 thread part, you're also noticing that tabs in chrome and FF have a lot less system impact and are far smoother / responsive switching between them. Go ahead, open 200 tabs.

I actually have friends that freak out when they see me running Vivaldi with 20 or so tabs open. You'd think those "portrait mode" tabs on the right made tab management easier than the derpy "let's try shoving them in at the top" approach... and that's on this 4770k.

Laugh is, you're now ahead of me on system spec. I don't get to do my own personal system until next week... got a client job paying for it I've got to complete first.

I got 49 lighters on my dresser, yessir... you know I gots to get paid.
Title: Re: Ryzen 5 3600 vs. 3600x, my conclusions
Post by: GrumpyYoungMan on 27 Feb 2020, 03:32:24 am
Thanks for all your advice Jason, not all of it was ignored - and I do appreciate it!

Thanks again! :)