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Author Topic: Holla Holla  (Read 68 times)

JesseWillWreckYa

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Holla Holla
« on: 2 Aug 2020, 01:45:21 am »
Since Jason's been consulting for the agency I work for I figgered I'd join up.

J, just want to say thank you for getting <snip> out of everyone's hair. As a boss he was horrible forcing us to use technologies that got us into trouble. At first you came bowling in like a ball in a china shop worry a lot of us. But other than Tim you took the time to explain where we went wrong where we don't know things and took the time to talk each of us through any problems. We were in trouble and we didn't even know it with the lawsuit most of us hadn't heard about until you were involved.

Getting <snip> fired is probably the best thing to happen for any of us at the office. He was making us as you said "create a class for every line of code" and insisting on react. I couldn't beleive the hissy he threw in tuesdays zoom about how we were all worthless without him and his guidance. That in front of the director he actually said we should just pay whatever fine the court levies and how the disabled person complaining was... well, less than human? You acted like you knew he was going to say that too.

Shocked at how simple and small the code you have us using is. We had a full stack of react, react-ui, nextJS, and you threw it all away. I thought it would be months before the new site was ready and you had us there in just two weeks. That is a third the time it took for us to build the original.

I had been told that all this javascript was faster than a normal website. Normal page loads were slow and bad for UX but what you've taught us is how it is all in your words "bold faced lies". This markup and css is so small and we have gone from a megabyte and a half of scripts to just 3k!

My question is how did I not learn this in school, in my apprenticeship, or my previous job. I have been working in web for six years and never once come across these "separations" you have taught us at the <snip>.

Edit by Jason Knight -- names removed to protect the guilty.
« Last Edit: 2 Aug 2020, 01:51:39 am by Jason Knight »

GrumpyYoungMan

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Re: Holla Holla
« Reply #1 on: 2 Aug 2020, 02:02:35 am »
I personally like Jason’s no nonsense approach, I think a spade is always a spade no matter how you try and dress it up...

Welcome to the forum, I hope you enjoy your stay around here!

He is a good teacher and I did start to a learn a lot from him but I got distracted and dropped the ball coothead is also a massive help around here too...
« Last Edit: 2 Aug 2020, 02:04:37 am by GrumpyYoungMan »
Trying to learn a new trick to prove old dogs can learn new ones...

Total Novice have-a go Amateur Coder - not sure that is the right thing to say... but trying to learn...

Jason Knight

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Re: Holla Holla
« Reply #2 on: 2 Aug 2020, 02:44:44 am »
Bull. Bald faced lies.

As in "Bull in a china shop", not ball. And yes, "BALD" faced lies, not bold. Common mistakes. At least you didn't talk about military units going rouge. :D

Welcome aboard, you're more than welcome here. I edited out the names as it's bad enough to air dirty laundry without divulging details that, well... I'm not even legally able to discuss.

You work for a federal agency, you might want to show some agency in deciding what you should and should not say. YES I realize said agency isn't the typical alphabet soup, but it's still the fed. Be careful what you say. ESPECIALLY NOW!

Thing is he's the sixth person I've gotten fired in five years. It's becoming a more and more frequent occurrence as these framework fanboys -- most of whom couldn't code a single line of HTML properly without the crutches -- dig in their heels with the lies and lame excuses. 

We were in trouble and we didn't even know it with the lawsuit most of us hadn't heard about until you were involved.
Technically it's not a lawsuit YET. The AG office contacted your director about the possibility of a suit, and to remind him of the changes to act III. This isn't uncommon even non-government cases as the benefit of a doubt is oft given by prosecutors. The problem is that was six months ago, and it wasn't until a civil suit was threatened (still not filed) that a fire was lit under your agency's backside.

As a boss
Entirely the correct word, he was a boss, not a leader. He didn't give you folks any guidance, he just said "do it this way" even when he wasn't qualified to determine how things should be done. In speaking privately with a number of you there was a general gist that if you guys tried to do something better or different from what he "demanded" you felt at risk of getting sacked.

He also seemed to have not bothered teaching any of you anything, which is why most of you couldn't even explain the most rudimentary functioning of the software you had in place. This even includes your little in-house crapplets that ANY one of you could do a better job of recreating solo without his interference. I have in fact told your director exactly that.

He created an "ecosystem" where to do anything, you had to try, fail, and then have him do it. This gave him job security and left him holding all the keys. When he "finally" did anything or "cleaned up" after you at no point did he take the time to tell you where you went wrong, why it was wrong, or why he was doing things the way he was. That's not leadership.

This is why his to-do list was sky high and why requests from above for changes and improvements went largely ignored. If it were not for the threat of legal action, he would still be driving everything into the ground.

And over the past three weeks I gave him EVERY chance to turn it around. I know I come in barking orders, but that's because you guys were in trouble, and you needed to fix it fast. I'm not there to say please, I'm there because there's a list of problems that need fixing ASAP. Problems he parroted the same lame excuses I hear at every one of these contract sites, refused to accept responsibility, spewed up the same propaganda faced lies I hear every flipping day, and then flat out refused to do any of the work or to even "allow" the required changes to take place.

I hate getting people fired, but he had it coming in spades.

Getting <snip> fired is probably the best thing to happen for any of us at the office. He was making us as you said "create a class for every line of code" and insisting on react.
That is because -- like every one of these poseurs who fail upwards into middle-management -- he is utterly unqualified to work in the underlying vanilla languages. Like most every other framework fanboy he swallowed the propaganda hook, line, sinker, and a bit of the rod. At no point did he ask "how" because in all likelihood when he learned React, he didn't know enough about HTML, CSS, or JavaScript to no any better. That's not really his fault, but deprogramming him of this nonsense is above my pay grade, particularly when yesterday was our flipping deadline!

I couldn't beleive the hissy he threw in tuesdays zoom about how we were all worthless without him and his guidance. That in front of the director he actually said we should just pay whatever fine the court levies and how the disabled person complaining was... well, less than human? You acted like you knew he was going to say that too.
Not my first rodeo. I've dealt with his type in at least half the contracts I've done the past decade. He pulled the same stunt my first day, spewing the same nonsensical rhetoric about how "without React nobody would ever be able to replace me" and then when I called him on that saying if he didn't change his attitude he was out, he said "They can't afford to replace me, I'm the only one who knows how anything works".

Which is it? Do these frameworks ease collaboration and make it so others can work with it, or does it create a system by which HE can't be replaced? I mean if React was making it so "great" for others to come in and work on it, and so "easy" to keep updated, why was it so hard to change or fix anything, why were people like YOU being left out in the cold at doing your job, and why did EVERYTHING have to revolve around him to the point of being "irreplaceable"?!?

This idiotic notion that working with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript directly will result in "code that nobody else can understand" says more about the person making said statement, than the "quality" of these frameworks. Again it all stems from those so deluded not knowing enough about those languages to even form an informed rational opinion on the topic.

And it's an attitude that I'll probably see at the next job, and the next. I see it on forums ALL the flipping time. Typically in combination with someone complaining that by pointing out what nonsense these asshats are spewing, I'm being "too confrontational". Wah wah, somebody used teh harsh words, nots thatz!!!

Shocked at how simple and small the code you have us using is. We had a full stack of react, react-ui, nextJS, and you threw it all away. I thought it would be months before the new site was ready and you had us there in just two weeks. That is a third the time it took for us to build the original.
By the time I got into working with you and your co-workers upper management had pissed away the bettter part of six months. We only had two weeks to get it done! If we used those frameworks we would still be working at it!

You basically only had a six page website, despite the thousands of separate indexed pages. 90% of that content was static, and that's why after a week of my re-teaching you guys basic HTML and CSS, we were able to have most of the existing site converted in just three days. All that left was the dynamic maps, and since it was all just line-draws from USGS mapping data it didn't even take 8k of JS canvas and ajax code to implement that. What's easier? 8k of vanilla code, or 300k+ of endless pointless objects and classes for nothing that relied on a 500k library to function?

It's the lie about these off the shelf answers. Even if they were simpler to learn (they usually are not) they are more work to implement and harder to maintain. Anyone new coming into that office would take weeks or even months to have been brought up to speed. You yourself said -- once you opened up -- that you were struggling to understand all of it.

Now there's a fraction as much for you to need to understand. And it's not just the client-side savings. In two weeks flat -- half that spent with me teaching you folks to re-think your ink -- we took a 290 megabyte back end spread out over 483 separate files, and replaced it with 583k of code in 28 files. Which is going to be easier for the next poor sods to come along to deal with? Which is going to be easier to maintain?

Don't even get me started about the custom low level C code we pulled that replicated at the system level with no protections what PHP functions do out of box, or how you folks were using that derpy "ourMySQL" wrapper to make mysqli pretend to be the old mysql_ functions. Security? What's that?!?

Just more proof that my home wireless has more security than most Federal Agencies.

My question is how did I not learn this in school, in my apprenticeship, or my previous job. I have been working in web for six years and never once come across these "separations" you have taught us

That's because most books on the topic are a decade and a half out of date -- even when they're brand new this year. It's because most people TEACHING this stuff still have their head wedged up 1997's backside. It's because all these systems CLAIM to magically be somehow "easier" despite being more to learn, making you write as much if not more code, and resulting in larger more complex codebases.

But the power of propaganda and the mob mentality, never underestimate it. People will continue to use these bloated train wreck laundry-lists of how NOT to build websites

It's actually why I dislike the term "semantic markup". I hate euphemisms... and that's all it is, a sick euphemism for "using HTML properly" designed to not offend the people who have their craniums permanently wedged up 1997's rectum. Maybe if we called it "using HTML properly" less people would get suckered into thinking that react, vue, bootstrap, tailwind, and all those other tripe is worth using.

No... that wouldn't work. That would involve comprehension and understanding.
« Last Edit: 2 Aug 2020, 02:50:13 am by Jason Knight »
Sorrow hides well in your shell. A fellow man with hurt to spare.
Dear one, here I am to share the fear. An act of kindness, without an amen.
Come in, the fire's warm. Burn the rope and dance some more.

GrumpyYoungMan

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Re: Holla Holla
« Reply #3 on: 2 Aug 2020, 02:48:03 am »
Jason write a book or some online guides
Trying to learn a new trick to prove old dogs can learn new ones...

Total Novice have-a go Amateur Coder - not sure that is the right thing to say... but trying to learn...

Jason Knight

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Re: Holla Holla
« Reply #4 on: 2 Aug 2020, 02:50:52 am »
Jason write a book or some online guides
Every time I start, it ends up out of date by the time I reach the third chapter.
Sorrow hides well in your shell. A fellow man with hurt to spare.
Dear one, here I am to share the fear. An act of kindness, without an amen.
Come in, the fire's warm. Burn the rope and dance some more.

JesseWillWreckYa

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Re: Holla Holla
« Reply #5 on: 2 Aug 2020, 02:57:05 am »
I personally like Jason’s no nonsense approach.
He certainly does cut right to it.

And your right, he is a good teacher. Given his attitude and bear-like approach I thought we were all done for and we were just getting more of the same abuse. He was gruff but he also took the time to explain every step, asked our opinions, and took time to speak to each of us at every step that concerned our work.

That's more than I have gotten in the two years I have been here from anyone else. He taught us things we should know, but nobody else even seems to talk about.

I didn't even know the blind could use the internet. Or even how they would do so. What was it he said to us? "The web is for everyone, not just the perfect?"

Jason Knight

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Re: Holla Holla
« Reply #6 on: 2 Aug 2020, 03:15:46 am »
I believe I said "The web is for everyone, not just the perfectly able bodied", but yeah. that.

It's a message today's narcissistic sociopaths seem to be ready to fight tooth and nail.

... and if I came in gruff, it's because I'm always fighting people at these types of contracts who got themselves in trouble, but then refuse to admit wrongdoing. Or to admit bad choices. And in cases -- like this one -- who fight against actually fixing things.

Generally it's the guys at the top, but I encounter it across the board in general.

Hell, I screwed up when it came to tying in the USGS data and one of your co-workers pointed it out. What did I do? I admitted I was wrong, and we fixed it. If the same thing happened with your ex-boss, he'd have doubled down "no that's right" and deployed it.

Which is why that map API you folks were using had that strange 90 degree rotate in the code none of you could explain. I copied what he had done server-side for data processing without that client-side rotate. He had basically layered more code on top to fix that he got longitude and latitude backwards. Hence when I used the same data order, the maps were wrong.

What was it Patton said? "I know I'm a primadonna! I admit it! That's what I can't stand about Monty, he won't admit it."

Rather than track down that the server-side code was backwards, he just threw more code at the client-side to fix it... and did so in a painfully convoluted way at that. I honestly don't think he even understood how any of the server-side code he was using (that he clearly didn't write) worked and -- like so many others -- was just blindly copying other people's work with zero understanding.

YOU understood it better, and that's not even your job! That part where you explained the JOIN I couldn't even wrap my brain around? Perfect example. That such a complex join was even in place for static data that only gets updated once a month -- on EVERY page request? Ouch.

You missed the conniption fit he threw over that code being changed. A change that reduced server load what, 60%?
« Last Edit: 2 Aug 2020, 03:18:14 am by Jason Knight »
Sorrow hides well in your shell. A fellow man with hurt to spare.
Dear one, here I am to share the fear. An act of kindness, without an amen.
Come in, the fire's warm. Burn the rope and dance some more.

benanamen

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Re: Holla Holla
« Reply #7 on: 2 Aug 2020, 12:59:49 pm »
Jason write a book or some online guides

I would like to see this book as well. I highly encourage you to finish it. Even if it gets "out of date" by the time you finish, it will still be decades ahead of what is out there. I am especially interested in Accessibility.
To save time, let's just assume I am never wrong.

mmerlinn

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Re: Holla Holla
« Reply #8 on: 2 Aug 2020, 02:52:22 pm »
Yes, a book is needed, but if Jason is spending all of his time putting out arsonist's fires, he will never have time to finish it.
The soul purr pus of a spell cheque cur is two valley date hour ignore ants.

 

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