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Author Topic: Nice blog  (Read 457 times)

ingo

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Nice blog
« on: 13 Nov 2021, 03:11:27 pm »
A nice blog I've been reading for a while. Guess Jason will like it,

https://unixsheikh.com/articles/using-a-framework-can-make-you-stupid.html

John_Betong

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #1 on: 13 Nov 2021, 09:07:23 pm »
I disagree wholeheartedly with the article although only basing my assumptions on using the PHP CodeIgniter Frameworks.

Without frameworks there are umpteen different ways to build a website and it is not easy to follow a particular programmer’s logic.

Frameworks give structure to the logic and especially using a MVC approach. I have quite a few websites and know exactly where to go when bug tracing. This also applies to adding or modifying web pages knowing the location of included files.

Frameworks also usually contain common routines such as CRUD or secure login applications which are tried, tested and refined by numerous programmers. Why “reinvent the wheel” and also experiment in order to refine the processes and especially to eliminate security loopholes.
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GrumpyYoungMan

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #2 on: 14 Nov 2021, 02:09:53 am »
I’m looking forward to Jasons’ comments!

Personally I am not a fan of frameworks, but I am no means a professional and to be honest I am not a programmer by trade!

 I do understand the “reinventing the wheel” comment…
Trying to learn a new trick to prove old dogs can learn new ones...

Total Novice have-a go Amateur Programmer - not sure that is the right thing to say... but trying to learn...

Jason Knight

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #3 on: 15 Nov 2021, 06:33:19 pm »
I mostly agree with the article, even though I will say that many server-side frameworks aren't as bad as their client-side cousins so long as they're not for node.js.

There are two major issues with server-side frameworks--particularly for PHP--that I see.

1) Many of them were created to fill "gaps" or flaws in the language that haven't existed since before PHP 5.2. This is particularly true of the ones that involve accessing SQL "their way" as they were made at the time of the long deprecated "mysql_" or "mssql_" functions. If you learn to use PDO, a good chunk of what these frameworks exists for becomes a pointless redundancy.

2) The bigger issue is the attempts to shoe-horn certain programming models in where they just don't fit. Like shoving a cow's size 14 into a size 9 pump. MVC is the poster child for this, as for 99% of what I do or would do with PHP, it doesn't fit.

I applaud the idea of separations it makes, and have used it in places where its circular relationship of data flow makes sense. C++ in pervasively multithreaded environments like BeOS / Haiku, RTOS motor control interfaces under QNX or Oberon. Even Windows API and GTK software can benefit from MVC.

But with PHP someone's trying to shove their 3" diameter round **** into a 2" per side triangular hole.

PHP is linear, straight line execution of task requests. There is no circular relationship between the view and the data! As such trying to force MVC in just results in WRITING two to ten times the code needed to do the job, mated to deploying five to twenty times what's needed.

And much like with the mind-numbingly dumbass RUBBISH that are front-end frameworks, how the hell is using ten times the code needed "easier"?!? Or "better for collaboration".

Like so many frameworks, the likes of Larabel, Codeignitor, etc, etc seem to be created and used by people who go "I don't want to learn the underlying language, so let's work ten times harder and add even more crap on top to learn."

I do not get the appeal. It all seems pretty asinine to me.

More so when the lame excuses like "don't reinvent the wheel" come along, given that in most cases what these scam artists framework do is sucker you into replacing the non-drive wheels of a car with two skateboards.
I'll fix every flaw, I'll break every law, I'll tear up the rulebook if that's what it takes. You will see, I will crush this cold machine.

John_Betong

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #4 on: 19 Nov 2021, 12:08:17 am »
Hi Jason,

Many thanks for taking the time to rant about the Framework article.

I've mixed feelings about your comments and get the general opinion they are not based on fact and only passing thoughts.

The verbose frameworks no doubt started simple but necessary complications raised to simplify usage.

I would like to know why you did not complete your PHP Framework especially since there was a great deal of interest! I'm sure the framework can still be lucrative from:

1. Medium Articles
2. Patreon Donations
3. eBooks, paperbacks and hard copies
4. Freelancing on installation and usage

There were an abundance of interested users that like the idea of a simplifed PHP Framework so much so that a website was raised and also a couple of GitHub Repositories. These would have been ideal to simplify changes that were discussed on this forum.

Site to summarise PalidinX and Squire3:

https://thisisatesttoseeifitworks.tk
« Last Edit: 19 Nov 2021, 05:15:03 pm by John_Betong »
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Jason Knight

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #5 on: 20 Nov 2021, 03:54:06 am »
I would like to know why you did not complete your PHP Framework
1) What Framework? Do you mean the CMS I belted out in my spare time entirely for the sole purpose of answering one person's question?

2) I got it to the point where it answered said question.

3) I've got paying jobs to work on. With no revenue stream for it I lack the time to put into it, particularly as I've also been more active away from the computing side of things. (see my misaventure (not a typo) in e-biking)

I actually take offense to it even being called a framework, as that was never it's intent or purpose. If you were viewing it in that light, then you failed to divine what it is, was, or is for. It honestly seems like people now throw the word "framework" at any snippet of code longer than ten lines, and I'm getting a bit sick of that bullshit. In fact the more people say rubbish like that, the LESS motivated I am to work on it. If moving forward it ends up treated like a "framework" then it's going to be turned into an incompetent shit-show of copypasta ineptitude.

Much like the asinine shithub insistence making me say "you know what, F*** this"

As I said, if others wanted to learn from it, pick it up and run with it, whatever, that's fine.
« Last Edit: 20 Nov 2021, 03:56:02 am by Jason Knight »
I'll fix every flaw, I'll break every law, I'll tear up the rulebook if that's what it takes. You will see, I will crush this cold machine.

John_Betong

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #6 on: 22 Nov 2021, 01:39:40 am »
Hi Jason,

Project:  PaladinX and Squire3

I regret the choice of calling the above project a PHP Framework and you taking umbrage.

As far as I am concerned it is a PHP framework, structure, scheme, system, construction, skeleton, etc, call it what you want.  It is a good basis of being able to flesh out and add content. I liked many of your innovations along with explicit logical reasoning for selecting the alternative methods... quite a few that I have already adapted... thank you.

There were also two other users that requested the project to continue because your version appears to have features that other projects are missing or far too bloated with unnecessary fluff. I personally dislike how other projects deem it necessary to create for example their own MySql, Error_reporting, Sessions, Curl replacements when PHP along with thousands of programmers have been refining the original version for over twenty years!

As mentioned, I and others would like you to continue the project and appreciate the time involved. I think it would be an excellent procrastination project and it could be lucrative.

As far as "copypasta ineptitude" is concerned then some of us old dogs are well past their prime, being noninnovative and have difficulty comprehending new tricks... be thankful for your current expertise...

Any suggestions how users could "run with it" and still benefit from your support?
« Last Edit: 22 Nov 2021, 06:05:03 am by John_Betong »
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benanamen

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #7 on: 22 Nov 2021, 02:52:23 pm »
I would like to see the Paladin and Squire continue. While I may challenge things sometimes, it makes for great discussion. I am always willing to be open and learn new things and even adopt new practices if they are better.
To save time, let's just assume I am never wrong.

John_Betong

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #8 on: 22 Nov 2021, 10:32:30 pm »
Hi Jason,

May I suggest creating a “https://paladinx-squire3.cutcodedown.com” subdomain.

1.  No doubt you could think of a more suitable URL

2. It is to be used for constructive procrastinating when you fancy a break from paying projects, weather not suitable for biking, Facebook, etc.

3. Ongoing utilizing latest features rather than a one-off that becomes outdated.

4. Relevant content would have forum link discussions where appropriate.

5. Version zipped source code that can be easily searched for specific details

Other ideas welcome that will contain a single project source…  rather than the current miss match of information.
« Last Edit: 23 Nov 2021, 04:12:16 am by John_Betong »
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Jason Knight

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #9 on: 27 Jan 2022, 07:39:22 am »
Just want to revisit this and say consideration is being given to continuing evolving paladin/squire, but it's part of a long-term plan of which Elementals 5 is "phase one".

... and phase one is nearing completion. Unit testing is proceeding apace, and documentation is ~50% complete as is the new website for it.

 There will likely be major architectural changes to simplify things as in hindsight I think I went overboard in trying to support multiple SQL engines, trying to isolate scope, and a number of things I did actually hit up against what I said about PHP frameworks. Just as they try to fill holes that haven't existed since PHP 5.1/earlier, I've got a good deal of code that was plugging gaps in PHP 5.x that just don't exist if I'm willing to put PHP 7 as the minimum supported version.

I'd like to make a newer version the cutoff, but one needs to be realistic about what hosts and hosting OS provide "out of box". Which sucks.
I'll fix every flaw, I'll break every law, I'll tear up the rulebook if that's what it takes. You will see, I will crush this cold machine.

John_Betong

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #10 on: 30 Jan 2022, 03:26:26 am »
Hi Jason, I'm looking forward to the updated "Paladin/Squire| application and especially since it will be hosted on it's own domain. Also curious about the chosen name, operating system, etc.

I'm sure there will be a tremendous amount of interest if the application is simple and takes advantage of the recent vast PHP improvements. Any chance of using the Just-in-Time-Compiler or does your code not need to be compiled :)

Any chance of a preview of the site?
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Jason Knight

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #11 on: 31 Jan 2022, 08:44:25 am »
Hi Jason, I'm looking forward to the updated "Paladin/Squire| application and especially since it will be hosted on it's own domain. Also curious about the chosen name, operating system, etc.
PHP/mySQL would make it OS independent. It might be Apache dependent though, depends on if people on other server software are willing to help translate the rewriterules.

I'm sure there will be a tremendous amount of interest if the application is simple and takes advantage of the recent vast PHP improvements.

Thus my starting over from scratch. Though it's one of those things where it's hard for me to even consider having a complete system of this nature given that it always ends up feeling like trying to shove the square peg into the round hole. EVERY time I build something new for a client -- which admittedly is far less frequent these days since I'm teaching coders more than coding myself -- I end up building from scratch and maybe copying a half-dozen minor lib functions. Why? Square peg: Rvery client has different needs and trying to use some off the shelf answer NEVER fits.

Any chance of using the Just-in-Time-Compiler or does your code not need to be compiled :)
Given that JIT is supposed to be transparent, I'm not sure why that's even a question.

Any chance of a preview of the site?

If you mean for next-gen paladin, that's WAY off down the road given it's basically "phase 3" of my current plan. Phase 1 is to finish Elementals.js version 5.

Phase 2 is going to be "Elementals HTML" which is going to be a snippet library of compatible, semantic, well written "components" people can blindly copypasta. Basically what frameworks TRY to provide, but without shitting out one giant CSS file or pissing on the markup with classes.

Though Elementals 5 has now passed unit testing, the underlying site code is complete, so now I'm in full-on documentation writing mode. I'm HOPING To have it live by Friday.

The idea is to create my building blocks for the CMS first. Having a JS library and standard HTML snippets library, that will be used to construct the default template for the CMS. That way the front-end can be well documented for others to follow as a guide.
I'll fix every flaw, I'll break every law, I'll tear up the rulebook if that's what it takes. You will see, I will crush this cold machine.

John_Betong

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Re: Nice blog
« Reply #12 on: 27 Apr 2022, 03:52:25 am »
Quote
Quote from: John_Betong on 30 Jan 2022, 03:26:26 am<blockquote>Any chance of a preview of the site?</blockquote>If you mean for next-gen paladin, that's WAY off down the road given it's basically "phase 3" of my current plan. Phase 1 is to finish Elementals.js version 5.

Hi @Jason Knight,

Have you made any progress on the "next-gen paladin" project in your copious spare time :)

My Freenom.com domain summary site of the Paladin Project is no longer available and. It was once Free but now about twelve dollars is required to resurrect the domain... so I have moved the domain to the following subdomain:

https://thisisatesttoseeifitworks.anetizer.com/

In case you have forgotten the following is a demo of the latest source code:

https://thisisatesttoseeifitworks.anetizer.com/jb-squire3/




« Last Edit: 28 Apr 2022, 01:45:19 am by John_Betong »
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