CUTCODEDOWN
Minimalist Semantic Markup

Welcome Guest
Please Login or Register

If you have registered but not recieved your activation e-mail in a reasonable amount of time, or have issues with using the registration form, please use our Contact Form for assistance. Include both your username and the e-mail you tried to register with.

Author Topic: How do you feel about Mdash?  (Read 483 times)

Evg

  • Junior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • agouti
How do you feel about Mdash?
« on: 31 Jan 2022, 09:58:00 pm »
Quote
Mdash is a new kind of UI library. It's 100% standards-based and it's tiny.
Mdash intends to leverage HTML, not replace it or try to outsmart it.

I'm interested in your opinion. Don't you think that this is a "better" attempt with the framework in light of what you write on the forum.

I found their approach more "clean". What do you think about this?

https://m-docs.org/
Interests: martial arts, sports, archeology, theology and programming

Jason Knight

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 832
  • Karma: +154/-1
    • CutCodeDown -- Minimalist Semantic Markup
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #1 on: 1 Feb 2022, 07:47:38 am »
It reeks of the same utter and total lack of understanding the point of HTML and CSS as every other "framework". The moment you see presentational classes like this:

Code: [Select]
class="txt-center txt-xxl">
RUN! You're looking at the same inept nonsense that made HTML 3.2 an abortive train wreck of how not to use a markup language. ALL they're doing is using classes instead of tags and attributes to say in the markup what they want things to look like.

The same can be said of the use of fairy tale made up tags that provide ZERO semantics since the UA has no idea what they MEAN. All those <m-whatever"> tags semantically mean nothing.

I mean just view-source their "examples" page to see the asshattery in action.

Code: [Select]
<body class="bg-offwhite">
  <m-container>
  <m-breadcrumb>
    <nav>
      <a href="/">Home</a>
      <span>Examples</span>
    </nav>
  </m-breadcrumb>
  <h1 class="mar-b-xs">Examples</h1>
  <h2 class="txt-gray-5 mar-t-none">Take a peek at one of these demo pages or scroll down to see tons of component examples</h2>
  <m-row>
    <m-col span="4">
      <m-box>
        <h4 class="mar-t-none"><a href="/examples/checkout">Checkout demo</a></h4>
        <p>A recreation of Bootstrap's Checkout example page demonstrating form elements and validation.</p>
      </m-box>
    </m-col>
    <m-col span="4">
      <m-box>
        <h4 class="mar-t-none"><a href="/examples/pricing">Pricing demo</a></h4>
        <p>A recreation of Bootstrap's Pricing example page.</p>
      </m-box>
    </m-col>
  </m-row>
</m-container>

H2 on something that is NOT starting a new subsection, H1 that is NOT the heading that everything on the SITE is a subsection of, skipping over H3 entirely, "row" tags instead of just letting something like flex-wrap do it's job? /FAIL/ at basic HTML. The next part is even worse:

Code: [Select]
<hr>
<h1 id="alert" class="txt-center txt-xxl">Alert</h1>
<m-container>
  <h4>All types</h4>
  <m-alert type="info">Sign up for <a href="#alert" class="fnt-bold">premium</a> to see the full list</m-alert>
  <m-alert type="success">Your order has been received! A confirmation email was sent to john@example.com</m-alert>
  <m-alert type="warn">Your flight has been canceled.</m-alert>
  <m-alert type="error">You do not have permission to delete records.</m-alert>
  <h4>Not dismissible</h4>
  <m-alert type="info" dismissible="false">You can't get rid of me.</m-alert>
<!--  <h4>Autodismiss (default of 4 seconds and 5, 6, 7 seconds)</h4>-->
<!--  <div>-->
<!--    <m-alert type="info" autodismiss>Goodbye in 4...</m-alert>-->
<!--    <m-alert type="success" autodismiss="5">Goodbye in 5...</m-alert>-->
<!--    <m-alert type="warn" autodismiss="6">Goodbye in 6...</m-alert>-->
<!--    <m-alert type="error" autodismiss="7">Goodbye in 7...</m-alert>-->
<!--  </div>-->
</m-container>
<hr>

Jumping straight from H1 to H4, meaningless tags wrapping obvious paragraphs, horizontal rule after it (placing it before another H1) when not breaking thought... It's almost like they're choosing the few semantic tags based on what they want things to look like, and that's NOT HTML's flipping job.

You get to the next one and they're wrapping single input/label with fieldset -- it's called a fieldSET for a reason and all they're creating is alt-nav hell.  Later on they're using LABEL to do LEGEND's job and don't even provide labels for checkboxes!

And that's before we talk about how they just slop anchors into menus with zero block-level breaks. View-source their home-page and you get monuments to "eye cans haz teh intarwebs" like:

Code: [Select]
<body class="flex" style="height: 100%">
<m-icon id="menu-toggle" name="menu" class="hidden pos-absolute pointer txt-md"></m-icon>
<aside id="menu" class="pad-all-md">
  <div>
    <div id="m-logo" aria-label="M- logo" class="push pull fnt-bold pos-relative mar-b-xs"><span class="pos-absolute">m-</span></div>
    <small class="block mar-b-md txt-center txt-gray-6">1.4.0</small>
    <nav>
      <a href="/" class="block mar-b-xs">Home</a>
      <a href="/examples" class="block mar-b-xs">Examples</a>
      <a href="/comparison" class="block mar-b-xs">Comparison</a>
      <a href="https://github.com/jfbrennan/m-" class="flex align-items-center mar-b-xs"><m-icon name="github" class="mar-r-xs"></m-icon> GitHub</a>
      <a href="https://twitter.com/realEmDash" class="flex align-items-center mar-b-xs"><m-icon name="twitter" class="mar-r-xs"></m-icon>Twitter</a>
      <hr class="mar-t-md mar-b-md">
      <h4 class="mar-t-none mar-b-sm">Layout</h4>
      <a href="/head-tags" class="block mar-b-xs">Head tags</a>
      <a href="/container" class="block mar-b-xs">Container</a>
      <a href="/grid" class="block mar-b-xs">Grid</a>

Because of course the logo and menu are a literary aside, it's fine to just dump anchors into a NAV tag, and the first headings on a page should be depth 4 with no 3, 2, or 1 preceding them, an HR before a numbered heading makes total sense, and you need to crap the same classes on each and every blasted element over and over -- NOT! Utter and total /FAIL/ at web development as it's telling non-visual users to go f*** themselves.

Much less how they've suckered themselves into using 21k of markup for 6.9k of plaintext with barely any "real" formatting, not even 12k of HTML's job.

It is painfully and obviously apparent -- as with all frameworks -- that these clowns do NOT know enough HTML or CSS to be creating a system like this in the first place, much less having the unmitigated GALL to tell others how to do so. Utterly and totally devoid of proper semantics, the separation of concerns, or even the slightest understanding of what HMTL and CSS are, much less are even for!
« Last Edit: 1 Feb 2022, 07:57:11 am by Jason Knight »
I'll fix every flaw, I'll break every law, I'll tear up the rulebook if that's what it takes. You will see, I will crush this cold machine.

Jason Knight

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 832
  • Karma: +154/-1
    • CutCodeDown -- Minimalist Semantic Markup
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #2 on: 1 Feb 2022, 08:06:52 am »
Ooh, yeah this is bad. Their version of BS's pricing example:

https://m-docs.org/examples/pricing

The markup might be tiny, but it's utter and total semantic gibberish.  I mean just look at this mental-huffing-midgetry:

Code: [Select]
<body class="bg-offwhite">
  <m-container maxwidth="none" class="flex align-items-center justify-content-between brd-b">
  <h3 class="mar-all-none">Company name</h3>
  <div class="flex align-items-center">
    <nav class="mar-r-md">
      <a class="pad-all-sm txt-darker" href="#">Features</a>
      <a class="pad-all-sm txt-darker" href="#">Enterprise</a>
      <a class="pad-all-sm txt-darker" href="#">Support</a>
      <a class="pad-all-sm txt-darker" href="#">Pricing</a>
    </nav>
    <a ord="secondary" role="button" href="#">Sign up</a>
  </div>
</m-container>

Starting the DOC with a H3? Some bullshit made up tag doing the job of HEADER? Anchors shit into the NAV with endless pointless idiotic presentational classes? Doing the job of:

Code: [Select]
<body>

  <header id="top">
     <h1><a href="/">Pricing Example</a></h1>
     <nav>
        <ul>
           <li><a href="#">Features</a></li>
           <li><a href="#">Enterprise</a></li>
           <li><a href="#">Support</a></li>
           <li><a href="#">Pricing</a></li>
        </ul>
      </nav>
   </header>

And this is why they /FAIL/. Just like this dipshit trash:

Code: [Select]
<m-container maxwidth="md">
  <m-row class="pad-b-lg">
    <m-col>
      <m-box class="txt-center">
        <header>
          <h4>Free</h4>
        </header>
        <h1>$0 <small class="txt-gray-4">/ mo</small></h1>
        <ul type="none" class="mar-b-lg">
          <li>10 users included</li>
          <li>2 GB of storage</li>
          <li>Email support</li>
          <li>Help center access</li>
        </ul>
        <button ord="secondary" class="full-width">Sign up for free</button>
      </m-box>
    </m-col>

H4 preceeding a H1, H1 on something that shouldn't even BE a flipping heading, made up tags, HEADER for nothing since all that's in it is a headING... Don't even get me STARTED about the rubbish "row" containers that are completely unnecessary and just result in having to write more complex CSS with more media queries.

doing the job of:

Code: [Select]
      <div class="pricingCards">

        <section class="deEmphasize">
          <h3>Free</h3>
          <ul>
            <li><strong>$0<span>/mo</span></strong></li>
            <li>10 users included</li>
            <li>2 GB of storage</li>
            <li>Email support</li>
            <li>Help center access</li>
          </ul>
          <a href="#" class="readMore">Sign up for free</a>
        </section>

Presentational markup is the antithesis of quality HTML, and as such every single example and pre-built structure they have is utter and total trash.

Compare to my rewrite that not only uses proper semantics, it also fixes some accessibility woes and does mobile-friendly better.

https://cutcodedown.com/for_others/medium_articles/bootStrapRewrites/pricing/

Sure I'm a whole whopping 200 bytes larger, but that's because I included the comparison table they didn't.
« Last Edit: 1 Feb 2022, 08:11:11 am by Jason Knight »
I'll fix every flaw, I'll break every law, I'll tear up the rulebook if that's what it takes. You will see, I will crush this cold machine.

Jason Knight

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 832
  • Karma: +154/-1
    • CutCodeDown -- Minimalist Semantic Markup
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #3 on: 1 Feb 2022, 08:15:45 am »
This:



Should tell you all you need to know about m-dash.
I'll fix every flaw, I'll break every law, I'll tear up the rulebook if that's what it takes. You will see, I will crush this cold machine.

coothead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
  • Karma: +72/-0
  • I smile benignly
    • coothead's stuff ~ an eclectic collection
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #4 on: 1 Feb 2022, 08:41:59 am »
Quote from: Evg
What do you think about this?

I think that I really should ask you this;  what are the actual  problems
that you  are experiencing  with Vanilla HTML, CSS and JavaScript which
would make you seek out such  mind-blowingly depressing alternatives ?  :o

To my simple mind this seems to be the mantra for framework peddlers...



coothead
« Last Edit: 1 Feb 2022, 08:57:44 am by coothead »
~ the original bald headed old fart ~

Evg

  • Junior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • agouti
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #5 on: 1 Feb 2022, 09:00:23 am »
Should tell you all you need to know about m-dash.

O! It's damn interesting. Thank you. Sometimes the examples say more than a lot of smart and kind of understandable articles. It's a good thing you didn't get to agouti. ) I got it. I seem to understand what you want to say. Thank you very much again.

I think that I really should ask you this;  what are the actual  problems
that you  are experiencing  with Vanilla HTML, CSS and JavaScript which
would make you seek out such  mind-blowingly depressing alternatives.  :o

Nothing interferes. I just decided to see what others are doing. Learn from their example, especially if so many people follow their example.

I usually tell myself when many people follow these patterns, they can't be wrong. )

It still requires a lot of thought and decision. Sometimes simple things are difficult for some reason. Simple things are sometimes damn complicated, it's so easy to write "extra" lines of code. :)
Interests: martial arts, sports, archeology, theology and programming

coothead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
  • Karma: +72/-0
  • I smile benignly
    • coothead's stuff ~ an eclectic collection
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #6 on: 1 Feb 2022, 09:20:39 am »
Quote from: Evg
I usually tell myself when many people follow these patterns, they can't be wrong. )

I think you should read this article...

Ad populum

...which explains your fallacy.

Quote
Simple things are sometimes damn complicated,
it's so easy to write "extra" lines of code. :)

If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.  8)

coothead
~ the original bald headed old fart ~

Evg

  • Junior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • agouti
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #7 on: 1 Feb 2022, 09:33:00 am »
I think you should read this article...

Yes. Interesting, I'm already reading. Thank you.
Interests: martial arts, sports, archeology, theology and programming

Jason Knight

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 832
  • Karma: +154/-1
    • CutCodeDown -- Minimalist Semantic Markup
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #8 on: 1 Feb 2022, 11:20:08 am »
I think you should read this article...

Ad populum
In propaganda it's called "bandwagon". In auditing it's called "pop fallacy".

It's like what I often say about Christ-tards, when they say "There are 2.2 billion Christians, that many people can't be wrong!"... ignoring the five billion or so who think Christians are full of shit.

Popular and commonplace does NOT mean good, right, or just. Usually it's quite the opposite.

My article about propaganda is highly relevant:
https://medium.com/codex/the-7-propaganda-techniques-and-how-they-sucker-web-developers-cd03333b2f0b
« Last Edit: 1 Feb 2022, 11:32:28 am by Jason Knight »
I'll fix every flaw, I'll break every law, I'll tear up the rulebook if that's what it takes. You will see, I will crush this cold machine.

Jason Knight

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 832
  • Karma: +154/-1
    • CutCodeDown -- Minimalist Semantic Markup
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #9 on: 1 Feb 2022, 11:31:20 am »
Sometimes the examples say more than a lot of smart and kind of understandable articles.

it's why the examples of a system are the first thing i dive for, and workalike examples are the first thing I make to do a fair comparison.

Too many people write articles for or against things without providing any 'meat' in the form of working examples. That reduces their argument or point to nothing more than cut rate propaganda devoid of fact.
I'll fix every flaw, I'll break every law, I'll tear up the rulebook if that's what it takes. You will see, I will crush this cold machine.

Evg

  • Junior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • agouti
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #10 on: 1 Feb 2022, 11:59:26 am »
Fine! I may have a few questions, but first I want to figure it out myself. Thank you.
Interests: martial arts, sports, archeology, theology and programming

GrumpyYoungMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • Karma: +8/-0
    • GrumpyYoungMan
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #11 on: 3 Feb 2022, 11:15:45 am »
I honestly find the frameworks more hard work work than just using vanilla PHP, HTML/CSS but I am by no means a professional...
Trying to learn a new trick to prove old dogs can learn new ones...

Total Novice have-a go Amateur Programmer - not sure that is the right thing to say... but trying to learn...

coothead

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
  • Karma: +72/-0
  • I smile benignly
    • coothead's stuff ~ an eclectic collection
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #12 on: 3 Feb 2022, 11:45:01 am »
Quote from: GrumpyYoungMan
... but I am by no means a professional...

Welcome to the club.  8)

coothead
~ the original bald headed old fart ~

Evg

  • Junior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • agouti
Re: How do you feel about Mdash?
« Reply #13 on: 10 Feb 2022, 05:29:57 am »
I honestly find the frameworks more hard work work than just using vanilla PHP, HTML/CSS but I am by no means a professional...

The main desire is probably to be supported by others. They say I use Bootstrap, for example, they will follow this part.

But I am more surprised when a site is created and the author declares that he is interested in promotion, but, in fact, he does not make a site, but a mobile application.

The r/RedditAlternatives group has tons of examples. It is not clear whether to deprive yourself of traffic from search engines, etc. Those. the webmaster doesn't even realize that there are problems.
Interests: martial arts, sports, archeology, theology and programming

DavidTew

  • Greenhorn
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • http://whatsapp.byethost12.com/
-
« Reply #14 on: 18 May 2022, 10:26:54 am »
I both admire their drive and resent their demand for everyone to be at their level or else they lack value.

My last boss was definitely a "workaholic".  He constantly ranted about how nobody worked as hard as him.  If you had a grievance, he always had a comeback about how much more he did than anyone.

He once said if he didnt require sleep and could devote 24 hours a day to working and making money, he would.  In that moment, I couldnt help but feel lousy for his wife and kids.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

Advertisement